CLASSIC REBOOT: Reflections On The PK Man with Debra Lynne Katz

CLASSIC REBOOT: Reflections On The PK Man with Debra Lynne Katz

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[Music] thinking aloud conversations on the Leading Edge of knowledge and Discovery with psychologist Jeffrey mishlov [Music] hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey meshlove today we are going to look at cultivating psychokinesis from a unique perspective because we'll be exploring the research that I did with a talented psychokinetic subject named Ted Owens as reported in my book the PK man and with me in the studio is Deborah Lynn Katz who has an unusual background as a researcher twice the recipient of the


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warkolier award from the international remote viewing Association for an outstanding research proposal she is also the president of the International School of Clairvoyance she is a gifted psychic reader and a remote viewer and the author of several books including you are psychic extraordinary psychic and freeing the genie within welcome Deborah thank you Jeff great to be here it's good to be with you and one of the reasons that we set up this interview together is because you've taken a particular


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interest in the PK man and and the training of the PK man yes the first time you talked about Ted Owens I was just fascinated it seemed like such an incredible documented case and you did such a fantastic job writing the whole book and really showing that this wasn't just about taking a person who had these experiences and believing him but you really approached this from a very intensive research perspective what was that like for you well I I worked with Ted for 10 years from 1976 until his death in


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1987. I I started that work as a graduate student myself I was in my um late 20s at the time and when the work began and I was very eager and energetic I I first heard about him when I visited Stanford Research Institute Hal put off and Russell Turk had invited me there to learn remote viewing as a matter of fact I did a remote viewing session with them in February of 1976 and at the same time they had this big file of papers and they said this strange fellow Ted Owens has been badgering us and and they said we know


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he's got real abilities because uh he ended a drought here in California for us and uh Russell targ said and I wrote back to him and I told him that was a good prediction and he wrote back to me and he said hell no that was no prediction I caused it and then they said but you know we're getting into so much controversy with our research with URI Gallard which had been published in science or nature magazine at the time they were getting a lot of publicity that we can't afford to have another controversial psychic


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associated with us so would you mind taking this case on and and they gave me all of their files and uh sort of dumped it in my lap as a way of getting it out of theirs and and there's so much to talk about with him could you give us a few examples of uh the point where you really believe that he may really have these abilities well you know when putoff and Tark told me right off the bat that there was this drought and I knew about the drought it was going on in the Bay Area at the time people were rationing water and uh the


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newspapers in Palo Alto that Russell and Hale showed me talked about the drought ended within days of Owen saying he would end the drought but not just that he said I'm going to end it in a way you'll know it was me because I have signatures that you will recognize they will include weird weather he's sleet hail snow and which is very rare in in the Bay Area and uh and he said they'll be UFO sightings as well and power blackouts all of that is part of his signature and that's what happened that's what was reported in the


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newspaper so at that time I was already a student of parapsychology and and I have to say it's hard for people to appreciate what it was like back in the 1970s but it seemed as if the research being done in parapsychology was going to change the world there were two things that look like they would change the world one was computers and the other to me was parapsychology and I can look back and say Yes computers did since the 1970s they changed the world the internet was just starting at that point but


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progress in parapsychology has been much slower and it's not that the phenomenon aren't real Ted Owens produced uh over 160 demonstrations of his abilities two-thirds of which produce dramatic results but it's more than people can digest and so even now 30 years nearly after his death I'm still talking about it because I think you know people are just starting to have the capacity to appreciate what might be possible with regard to the human mind so can you give us a couple examples now I know you were with him a lot you were


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actually at locations with him yes so out of all those examples what are the ones that really stick in your mind where you yourself saw the phenomenon well now to be honest with you Deborah even though I was with him on occasion he dealt with large-scale phenomenons so I wasn't necessarily present when when they occurred um but you were he would call you up and say this is going to happen and this is the way it's going to happen and then it was interesting in the book because you would not just even after it happened


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then you would set up a control group yeah can you talk about that for example he told me that he wished to uh produce an effect for me and I I was very happy that he was willing to work with me and I knew that in the uh historical records he had shown the ability to produce UFO sightings I thought that would be neat so I said do that for me and he said okay without waste giving me any time to prepare he said I'm going to make three UFO sightings happen within a hundred mile radius of San Francisco and so


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I thought good but how do I know UFO sightings aren't happening everywhere all the time anyway so I contacted a group of fellow graduate students at the University of California San Diego similar Metropolitan Community and I said would you monitor the San Diego area in the next 90 days and we'll use that as a control to see if any UFO sightings occur and there were two significant sightings at least two in the Bay Area not three as he had promised but two and none in the San Diego area so that was a


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control but in retrospect this kind of research does not lend itself well to the experimental method at least that demonstrates that that you were trying I did yes I did what I could as as a graduate student but you know I couldn't publish any of these results in any scientific journal they it was not possible to get the proper statistical database regarding the kinds of events he worked with power blackouts hurricanes tornadoes hot spells cold spells sporting events well the sporting events probably come the closest to


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those that might be analyzable in a statistical manner but then you would follow up you would contact newspapers and radio stations to to find out exactly what happened with the weather it wasn't like you just took his word that it worked well as a matter of fact he did a lot of that for me he'd say I'm going to concentrate on this event or that event and he'd send me the newspaper clippings I would have and I still have postmarked letters from him on a particular date saying I'm going to cause this event using my psychokinetic


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powers in conjunction with my space intelligence friends invisible other dimensional beings who hover over the Earth in a large gigantic UFO and then he would send me the newspaper clippings showing that these things had in fact occurred he just cut them right out of the newspaper they're easy to verify they're still on the record all these documents I have several file drawers full of these documents so he was easy to work with he was trained in parapsychology as a research assistant for JB rein back in the 1940s so he


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understood the importance of documenting what he could do he wanted nothing more than to have a group of supportive scientists working with him to harness his abilities for the betterment of humanity and did he ever get that I mean he had you studying him but did he ever get his dream of people saying hey let's come together and he had a small cotery of True Believers who supported him financially some people were working class people who gave whenever they could and there were were occasional wealthy benefactors


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but by and large no certainly not from the government and I I was the closest contact uh in the scientific Community there might have been one or two other individuals who took them seriously but by and large people were either in total disbelief that someone could have these abilities or they were frightened I I once organized a gathering of scientists to look at the data and I arranged for the famous UFO researcher J Allen heineck to come to that event and he got there and he said I wouldn't touch Ted


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Owens with a 10-foot pole even though he had shown an ability to produce UFO sightings he said whatever he's doing it's a product of the unconscious mind he's a Loose Cannon and I want nothing to do with him and that that was a friendly response and as far as being a loose cannon could you talk about that would you agree with that assessment he was a very difficult personality to deal with but I think anybody who put themselves out the way he did who said I can do this watch me you know if you don't believe me just


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watch and he would do it but people got angry at him and and they said you're a phony or you're doing the work of the devil in fact he was a Healer back in the 1950s do using hypnosis for healing in the American Medical Association tried to put him out of business it was a big blow to him personally and there were many letters of testimony as as to how people were healed but after the AMA shut him down I think he developed a bitterness inside and a desire to teach people lessons when they treated


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him rudely I think the one lesson I've learned from all of that is to treat everybody with respect because you never know who might have psychokinetic abilities and I once heard you talk about an incident where he got upset with you and you felt that he may have had an impact yes this happened Deborah because after this amazing UFO sighting that occurred as part of the San Francisco demonstration in 1976 where he told me he'll create a UFO it will be seen by hundreds of witnesses it will be photographed a photograph of it will be


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published on the front page of one of your local newspapers and that happened but he had also told me he would create three UFO sightings and at that point in time there were two so he was on the phone with me and he was going on about what a great job he had done producing this incredible the best attested UFO sighting in history at that point probably although it never got into the annals of the UFO people but I said to him well Ted you haven't done everything that you said you were going to do


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and at that point he got very angry and he slammed the phone down and within I was feeling fine at the time but within half an hour I began to get a sore throat and you know how you get that feeling like uh oh I'm going to get a cold this is like my throat is so scratchy I know what's going to happen now and I was expecting it was going to get bad and then about an hour later or so I was feeling pretty sick he called me up and without explaining anything he said Jeffrey I'm sorry I promise I will never


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do that again and within 15 minutes everything lifted I felt fine that's very interesting yeah so one of the things I thought would be really interesting to talk about a lot of times conversations like this get into did it really happen and the proof but let's say everything he was saying was true and that he was Guided by this alien intelligence can you tell us because he's no longer here so you're the only you're the voice for him now what were these alien beings like can you give us a physical description well he described


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them as if you were to see them physically as being like giant grasshoppers and they made High spit pitch squeaky sounds and he called them Tweeter and Twitter he also said that they had the ability to appear to you in different forms and that they could appear to you as an energy being so you wouldn't have to you know if you would be frightened by the idea of a giant grasshopper or praying mantis kind of insectoid creature um that's what he said they were like and he said they sat in their big giant


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invisible UFO above the Earth and they had a big like TV screen that they looked at and he would project mental images to them and they'd see it on that big screen and then they could you know create whatever effect he asked them to to produce he said that they had been watching him his whole life that as a child he had shown a lot of psychic potential including levitations but that they arranged to abduct him and operate on his brain and give him extraordinary powers so that they could do some research and see how the human


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race would respond to a person like him so he would project a mental image out to them showing them what he wanted to have happen and then how would they communicate back to him well he claimed that during his life he held many different professions he was a jazz drummer he was a high-speed typist he was hired as a idea man via railroad he was a shorthand expert he was a bullwhip artist in a nightclub act and he claimed that they guided him to have all these different professions so that his mind would be


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flexible enough to be able to communicate with them telepathically I can't say much more than that but I what I would like to do since you have taken an interest Debra in the training program and have actually listened to some of his tapes that are available to people from the training that I took with him in 1986. maybe you have some feeling for it well you know I've I've been listening to those tapes and I find I fall asleep pretty much as soon as he says you're going to go into a deep sleep I go into


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a deep sleep but what I can say is for the first couple ones as soon as the tape started I started to have imagery just bombarded by images which doesn't tend to happen to that extent when I listen to a lot of audio programs and the images were very unusual I'd say they would have been disturbing they didn't totally surprise me given that I had read the book but the just images like Angry there was an angry dog that had its back to me and then he turned his head and just kind of looked at me in an arrogant way and then kept going


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and there was another and beans that look like strange animals like half turtles half Eagles just strange thing and the thing that stood out was that there seemed to be some kind of awareness with them you know images don't usually clairvoyant images are just usually just like watching TV you know you're they're not turning their heads and looking back at you when you watch TV some kind of awareness so there's just a lot of this and some of it I might consider lower astral type what you would think of just kind of a


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whole bunch of garbage type things but what what did now he had a lot of different phenomenon happening besides for all this in fact he claimed that he was being hounded by Poltergeist activity around him and uh I I believe him when he said that his family members attested to much the saying that there were always strange things going on I'll even say this I had it one time a student working with me to organize all the files and papers and the student who had a filing system and he took all of this home with him to work on it and he


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reported back to me that one night he had left everything and he went to bed and when he got up in the morning back in his living room where all of this material had been kept it was scattered all over like a poltergeist had come and just thrown everything around so you know dealing with psychokinesis it's it's like this irrepressible force and you don't always know what it's going to do it's often very unpleasant for people who have spontaneous psychokinetic activities going on around them very few


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people are good at controlling it and then on top of all of that you have a strong segment of our population the fundamentalist Christian Community in particular who would say this is all diabolic it's the work of the devil and I think that your imagery of the Angry Dog reminded me of many of images I've seen at temples in Asia of uh figures that I would call demonic not demonic uh the meaning is a little different but it's a powerful psychic Force associated with the Devas or deities not always positive


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but not necessarily evil in the Christian sense of uh satanic uh and and he would sometimes hear growling noises can you talk about some of what he reported and also was it ever verified well the only verification was from his own family members who were with him at the time and uh indeed they they attested that these things were going on growling noises like sightings of creatures and uh so on it was just part of his world and um did this disturb him at all yeah I think he was bothered by it I think he


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didn't always get enough sleep at night I think you know for I don't encourage people to cultivate psychokinesis in general I think it may be a little bit more than most people can handle I know in your case I thought giving your background as a student of psychic lifelong student of psychic functioning and a person who seemed to have a I would say maybe a spiritual or a soul calling to explore this it it felt okay but you're one of the rare people whom I've ever thought ought to ought to look into cultivating


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psychokinesis yeah and I it's a shame I haven't been able to stay awake for any of his tapes so maybe I know you've listened to them several times can you tell us what is the core of the training can you give us a couple techniques that you gave you the training is all I have to say very positive it involves a lot of positive affirmations it involves many visualizations of being in communion with nature being in communion with the deity having sacred spaces one can go into to communicate with nature and with


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with a Divine being um it involved working out Kinks and wrinkles in your own personality and being able to see the world clearly and to without having any cloudiness in in your understanding of things so all of that was a hundred percent positive and when I asked him about it and I said well are you using hypnosis to help cultivate these abilities he said well that's only the beginning because he said what he was really doing is using his own psychokinetic abilities in the training with the help of the space


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intelligences that you needed their cooperation and he said most of what was going on in this training was coming from them and from his own PK which is the parapsychological abbreviation for psychokinesis and and did he talk about why him why would the space aliens choose him for this he claimed he was the first person they had found since Moses who could wield this kind of energy who was able to handle it um and frankly you know knowing the history of parapsychology as I do and as my co-author from of the original draft of


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the book D Scott rogo was a real expert on the history of parapsychology there doesn't appear to be anyone else who has been studied who who has exhibited that range of large-scale phenomenon although it's not unknown and say the literature of shamanism I'm inclined to think since we only have a minute or so left Deborah to to wrap things up to say that this this is a natural human Talent this is something that someday in the distant future many people will probably be able to cultivate and express and uh that we can


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integrate this deep mysterious Talent into our technological Society I think eventually that will happen well and for all we know since I really believe that our psychic abilities are happening to us all the time without our awareness it's very possible that the same things he was doing was happening is we're already doing this just subconsciously J.B Ryan used to point out that every time we of our own volition do something like I can raise my hand that's psychokinesis that's mind over matter right there that to be able to do that


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outside of the body is uh you know the next level but it's it's only a Step Beyond what we all do all the time anyway yeah and Ted the one thing that strikes me when I listen to him is that he seemed to have such a sense of confidence was he always that confident about what he was doing well I'm told in the shamanistic literature that that sense of confidence is necessary that you have to totally believe really really believe that you can do it and and that's what makes it happen well our time is up Deborah but thank


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you so much for being willing to share this half hour with me on on this most unusual and I think important topic yes and I hope people will go out and read the PK man it definitely deserves to be read in front cover to cover thanks Deborah and thank you for being with us [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music]